Info heard on RSO just now...

[zz0468]

It WAS much worse than it is now. Most of the original problems stemmed from incompetent installation. The "stupid" conventional systems were put in place so that there would be at least SOMETHING to use while a real fix was found. It costs well over a million dollars and a couple of years to put a site in. It costs about $50,000 to stick in a conventional radio to fill a coverage hole.

I find it amusing how many myths and misinformation gets propagated about how things came about. Unfortunately, the myths and rumors are what feeds the perceptions. Reality seldom plays a part when taking a retrospective look at how we got to where we are.

I sent you a PM.

[convE36]

So say RSO replaced every EXISTING piece of radio equipment (for motorola) RIGHT NOW without adding additional sites/systems/repeaters or whatever, would coverage be better?

Does Motorola have better coverage than EDACS?

If they replaced the Elsinore Peak Tower with Motorola (same power as the existing) would it improve coverage?

[zz0468]

NO!!!

If the existing system was directly replaced with Motorola equipment, in an identical system, the coverage would not change. Radio waves don't know what brand of transmitter generated them, and the laws of physics are the same for EDACS and Motorola. A few things would change, though -

1. Wide area coverage would not be as good. Motorola's Type II system does not support wide area intercell traffic as elegantly as EDACS does.
2. Motorola does not support trunked data as well as EDACS does, so a separate system would have had to go in. That would be better, but now we're comparing apples and oranges again.
3. Some of the user ID functionality is not as versatile in Motorola as it is in EDACS.
4. The emergency button functionality is more versatile in EDACS.
5. EDACS has more and better failsoft options. When Motorola goes into fail soft, every repeater goes into a conventional mode. When EDACS goes into failsoft, Each site becomes a stand alone trunking system with full functionality. In fact, Santa Rosa operates in the first level of failsoft all the time - by design. If the local site controller fails, the site can be programmed to either drop off line (desireable in a simulcast system with overlap coverage), or it can go into conventional operation similar to what Motorola does.

[318]

Another point to consider is, what if Riverside County chooses to make the entire system P25 and encrypted. While the RF coverage may be better (provided the county was able to provide enough sites for proper coverage as determined by Motorola engineers), you may be cursing Motorola for latency and poor voice quality... It will sound worse then using a Nextel radio for work. Ask any BP Agent... and they arent even trunked.

For the record, as most of us know, San Bernardino is Motorola Type II analog. Easy to use/hear with good site locations.

In zz's defense, the Riverside County EDACS system probably would work better if every deputy knew how to use it from a tech's standpoint.

In code's defense, details like that take back-seat to a bad-guy pointing a gun at you.

A new, more user-friendly system with more sites may be a good thing.

~Chad (318)

[rolncode2892]

The deputies do know how to use the radio system. It is not complicated one bit. You turn it on and off. You can change repeaters when needed, but most of the time, the radio automatically changes repeaters for you (when it goes into CC or WA scan) when you go out of a coverage area. It is not the deputies not knowing how to use the radio system. It is very simple. It is the system that is broken. Their is no reason to have the (West) system fail on any night of the week, regardless of the amount of users. Dispatchers have no control when the repaters take a crap, or the dead zones of coverage we have. The system was built without enough area of coverage, and the county tried to patch it with band-aid after band-aid. That is why conventional systems were added. You can't blame the deputies, the dispatchers, or the radio techs. The county got what it paid for. And now it is forking out big bucks for the new system.

[convE36]

The deputies do know how to use the radio system. It is not complicated one bit. You turn it on and off. You can change repeaters when needed, but most of the time, the radio automatically changes repeaters for you (when it goes into CC or WA scan) when you go out of a coverage area. It is not the deputies not knowing how to use the radio system. It is very simple. It is the system that is broken. Their is no reason to have the (West) system fail on any night of the week, regardless of the amount of users. Dispatchers have no control when the repaters take a crap, or the dead zones of coverage we have. The system was built without enough area of coverage, and the county tried to patch it with band-aid after band-aid. That is why conventional systems were added. You can't blame the deputies, the dispatchers, or the radio techs. The county got what it paid for. And now it is forking out big bucks for the new system.

We live in some of the most "hilly" terrain in state. What did they expect?

While I monitor the Southwest System (and have no hands-on experience), it is quite amazing how often deputies are coming in all static or not at all. I know it is a coverage problem when I hear where they are at that time. Being behind a certain hill in front of the tower or whatever.

Would it really be that hard to "upgrade" the current EDACS system? (From a government entitys point of view, cheap cheap cheap)

It seems all they need is a couple more sites and maybe a few more frequencies.

But again, I'm not the deputy with the radio in my hand or the tech who installs these. So I probably have no idea what I'm talking about

[rolncode2892]

Good question. I don't know why the county just didn't add more repeaters and frequencies. I think one reason is because of Nextel. Nextel had some major bleed-over issues in the 800mhz spectrum, so (I think) many government agencies are moving to 700mhz. That is what I heard we are suppose to be going to. I have no idea though. And I believe Nextel is taking some of the 800 band.

[zz0468]

Good question. I don't know why the county just didn't add more repeaters and frequencies. I think one reason is because of Nextel. Nextel had some major bleed-over issues in the 800mhz spectrum, so (I think) many government agencies are moving to 700mhz. That is what I heard we are suppose to be going to. I have no idea though. And I believe Nextel is taking some of the 800 band.

I know why. At the time the 800 MHz regional plan was being developed, sometime in the mid 1980's, Riverside County was not intent on switching from high band to 800 MHz. Later, when explosive growth in the county forced the county's hand, getting frequencies was quite a challenge. Something like 28 NPSPAC frequencies and 2 non NPSPAC wideband channels were assigned. At the time, that was deemed sufficient. Nextel had nothing whatsoever to do with th original channel grants, nor do they have anything to do with the development of the 700 MHz band.

Simply adding frequencies is not so easy. The systems are primarily simulcast, so getting a single new frequency means you have to find one that will work on 3 or 4 sites without interfering with somebody else. Then you have to add 3 or 4 radios to those simulcast sites (at $20,000 each). Some sites simply don't have the room. Or maybe getting bandwidth on the microwave system isn't so easy to do. The central system controller has to have capacity to handle that additional channel. And so on. Once you've cleared all those hurdles, you have to program about 4000 mobile and portable radios before you can even turn the channel on.

The Nextel issue is essentially a one for one swap of frequencies within the 800 MHz band to mitigate the effect of having Nextel sites located at street level overpowering the public safety transmitters that are located on distant mountain tops. Their current frequencies are intertwined with public safety frequencies, so the so called "rebanding" effort is an attempt to separate them. 700 MHz is an effort to provide more public safety spectrum due homeland security concerns, and is closely tied to the effort to replace analog television with Digital television.

[zz0468]

The deputies do know how to use the radio system. It is not complicated one bit. You turn it on and off. You can change repeaters when needed, but most of the time, the radio automatically changes repeaters for you (when it goes into CC or WA scan) when you go out of a coverage area. It is not the deputies not knowing how to use the radio system. It is very simple. It is the system that is broken. Their is no reason to have the (West) system fail on any night of the week, regardless of the amount of users. Dispatchers have no control when the repaters take a crap, or the dead zones of coverage we have. The system was built without enough area of coverage, and the county tried to patch it with band-aid after band-aid. That is why conventional systems were added. You can't blame the deputies, the dispatchers, or the radio techs. The county got what it paid for. And now it is forking out big bucks for the new system.

That shiny new Motorola system you're getting WILL fail at times. Sorry, but that's the way it is. There's nothing magically special that makes Motorola more reliable than an EDACS system. I know - I've maintained both types. Trunking simulcast systems are phenomenally complex, and can be very cantankerous and tricky to properly maintain. Don't expect that to change anytime soon.

The biggest reason for the current troubles are insufficient sites due to a poorly written specification. No one told the original EDACS vendor that it had to work for portable radios everywhere. So it doesn't. Also, 800 MHz was relatively new - many of the things that impair propagation at that frequency were simply unknown. Who knew that the length of pine needles in the mountain areas would cause additional losses!? Couple that with the cost cutting measure to use the same mobile radio for voice and data, and you now have a sure fire formula to miss calls. Add an archaic dispatch philosophy that is based on the old VHF system of 1984, and you have multiple talk groups patched together so one dispatcher can handle a huge area. You've now set the stage for system busy's that cause queuing on Friday and Saturday fight nights. Deliver the coup de grace by building 20,000 homes in previously unpopulated areas that were not specified to need radio coverage at all, and that brings you up to date.

The conventional band aids were added as a result of events like the double murder of Deputies Lehmann and Haugen in Cabazon, and the fear of a recurrence caused by poor communications. Efforts to add simulcast sites to the existing systems were thwarted for many, many reasons, so simple conventional fill systems were installed instead. Even the conventionals were saddled with so many restrictions on their use, who could have them, when they could switch to them, etc. that they are not nearly as useful as they could have been.

As to turning it on and off, it's a bit more involved than that. Do you know what system you're REALLY supposed to be in? If you're in MOVAL and select West + Central because you think it will give you better coverage from both systems, you're wrong. And it doesn't always automatically select the best system to be in. I once had a deputy tell me that he thought the emergency button would work no matter what, even if he was in a bad spot. If you can't get a channel grant, the emergency button can't work either. Unfortunately, getting that information across to the users can be a challenge. There was never a good mechanism to do that without it getting lost in translation. There are very definitely operational issues adding to the problems. All of this is is getting addressed with the new system. Let's hope they get it right this time.

[zz0468]

We live in some of the most "hilly" terrain in state. What did they expect?

Riverside County is some of the most challenging terrain in the world for radio coverage. It's got desert, mountains, rolling hills, marine air flow with lots of moisture, heat. Everything that makes radio waves not go where you want them, Riverside County has.

While I monitor the Southwest System (and have no hands-on experience), it is quite amazing how often deputies are coming in all static or not at all. I know it is a coverage problem when I hear where they are at that time. Being behind a certain hill in front of the tower or whatever.

Deputies are using HT's in cars because using the car radio makes them lose MDT messages, Nextel interference, interference from illegally imported security cameras, illegal cellphone jammers, metal buildings, I could go on all day with this list - all of these things are causing static and noise all across the 800 MHz band. Not just in Riverside County.

Would it really be that hard to "upgrade" the current EDACS system? (From a government entitys point of view, cheap cheap cheap)

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! An upgrade would have been cheaper than an all new system, but not "cheap" by any stretch of the imagination. Figure a low estimate of $1 million per site. How many sites did you want? You want fries with that?

It seems all they need is a couple more sites and maybe a few more frequencies.

Wrong again. Some of the major problem areas could have been fixed with maybe a half dozen sites. But with the county growing the way it has, and expectations of a specific grade of service (i.e. deputies relying primarily on HT's, and not the car radios) it'll take a lot more before anyone could sit back and say the coverage is "good". The current number of frequencies could probably manage the traffic load, but it would take a huge expansion of sites, and some very painful decisions on the part of RSO to change the way they operate.

But again, I'm not the deputy with the radio in my hand or the tech who installs these. So I probably have no idea what I'm talking about

Heh... you're right here, but you do have some interesting perceptions. For someone in my shoes, it's useful to see how others perceive what should have, or could have been done.