Who Uses What System?

Forum to discuss radio scanning outside of Riverside County. This is the ideal place to post topics related to Los Angeles, San Bernardino, Orange, San Diego, Imperial County and Western Arizona.
Jlanfn
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:36 pm

Re: Who Uses What System?

Post by Jlanfn »

cvrules90 wrote:That kinda what I"m thinking, a list of users and the systems associated with them. It's confusing because, SBSO, for example, uses several of the systems as oppposed to just being on one. From what I can see, the P-25 system will be easier to follow because it's one big system as opposed to being broken into parts like it is now.
That has to do with limitations to the trunking technology that was available at that time. Remember that these systems have been around since the early '90s. They are Motorola Type II SmartNet systems, which is different from SmartZone or P25 in that the system is limited to one site or simulcast cell. Even if the entire county had been covered with one enormous simulcast system (pointless because you don't need to hear all the metro valley traffic if you're in Barstow), it would still be limited to 27 talk paths with one control channel. That is just enough capacity for portions of the valley area as it is (see System 6/7).

So basically, the county needed multiple systems because that was the only way for the trunking technology of the time to provide the needed capacity and geographical coverage.

There are probably other reasons that zz can provide. He has much more experience and history with the county's radio technology.
zz0468
Posts: 236
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:35 pm

Re: Who Uses What System?

Post by zz0468 »

Jlanfn wrote:...Even if the entire county had been covered with one enormous simulcast system (pointless because you don't need to hear all the metro valley traffic if you're in Barstow), it would still be limited to 27 talk paths with one control channel. That is just enough capacity for portions of the valley area as it is (see System 6/7).
The newer systems are still limited by similar constraints. The number of channels is higher, as is the number of sites, but there are still limitations. In addition, there are practical limits on how many channels can be installed in a given site... there are physical space and power considerations, and other technical factors that come into play. But the big one will be frequencies. Not every frequency can be licensed at every site, so that can make large wide area simulcast systems almost impossible to build. So, it gets broken down to separate systems service a specific area, with channel capacity to match the requirements.

So, the new system will still be broken out into numerous smaller systems, like what's done today. It won't be as if you can program in one single system in your scanner and go anywhere in the county and hear everything.
Jlanfn wrote:So basically, the county needed multiple systems because that was the only way for the trunking technology of the time to provide the needed capacity and geographical coverage.
The mountain area needs are different from that of the valley, so there will be separate systems. What's different is how the multiple separate systems work together for wide area coverage for the users that are authorized for it. At some level, it will be one big system, but from a traffic and control channel aspect, it will be multiple systems just like it is today.

There can be specific users that are only authorized for a single site, for example jail units using a cell located at a detention center. Those guys may not be able to take their radio outside that site's coverage and talk to anyone. For other units, they may have seamless county wide coverage, and as it hands off from one cell or system to another, the user can be almost completely oblivious to it. Or, it can be separated out by site or cell, similar to what it is now, where a user would have to manually select, say, the mountain system, when he or she drives out of the valley into the mountains.

It's very versatile. It can be controlled by individual radio, and/or by talk group. A talk group must be allowed in a specific cell, and a radio must be allowed in that specific cell, and on that specific talk group. And that level of control IS used in these types of systems. Its' the only way to manage channel resources.

There is a common problem that can crop up. If a unit radio was not completely programmed, it becomes possible for several units to go to some specific location, and one of them can't talk. It's like he's in a dead spot, and everyone else works fine. The system and unit programming is EXTREMELY complicated on these systems. I suspect that issues such as that were one of the things that held back the PSEC system from cutover for so long.
Jlanfn wrote:There are probably other reasons that zz can provide. He has much more experience and history with the county's radio technology.
Good grief... I could go on for days.

One thing cvrules90 can count on is, it won't be any easier for him to program his scanner than it is now. And we haven't even talked about encryption.
cvrules90
Posts: 1393
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:08 am

Re: Who Uses What System?

Post by cvrules90 »

Zz, I have no difficulty programming my BCD396XT to start with. Soon I might even upgrade to a newer model just don't if base unit or portable is better.
zz0468
Posts: 236
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:35 pm

Re: Who Uses What System?

Post by zz0468 »

cvrules90 wrote:Zz, I have no difficulty programming my BCD396XT to start with. Soon I might even upgrade to a newer model just don't if base unit or portable is better.
Oh.
cvrules90 wrote:...From what I can see, the P-25 system will be easier to follow because it's one big system as opposed to being broken into parts like it is now.
I thought because you said this, you were hoping it would be easier.
cvrules90
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Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:08 am

Re: Who Uses What System?

Post by cvrules90 »

It might take out some legwork. No need to create seperate systems.
zz0468
Posts: 236
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:35 pm

Re: Who Uses What System?

Post by zz0468 »

cvrules90 wrote:It might take out some legwork. No need to create seperate systems.
Oh? Have you seen the final system design?

I'm not yet convinced that's how it will be. We'll see... We'll see.
sp1989
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Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:08 pm

Re: Who Uses What System?

Post by sp1989 »

Just the diverse terrain of SB County seems like several systems are necessary. One huge, monolithic system to cover everything seems likely impossible. That's a lot of real estate....
cvrules90
Posts: 1393
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Re: Who Uses What System?

Post by cvrules90 »

sp1989 wrote:Just the diverse terrain of SB County seems like several systems are necessary. One huge, monolithic system to cover everything seems likely impossible. That's a lot of real estate....
Riverside County also has varrying terrain. You got desert, mountains, and lakes. The Coachella Valley, for example, is so low with all the mountains surrounding it that maybe the PSEC should be broken down...
zz0468
Posts: 236
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:35 pm

Re: Who Uses What System?

Post by zz0468 »

cvrules90 wrote:Riverside County also has varrying terrain. You got desert, mountains, and lakes. The Coachella Valley, for example, is so low with all the mountains surrounding it that maybe the PSEC should be broken down...
One thing that will happen in these discussions will be a conflict in the definition of terms. PSEC appears to have a single system ID, or at least only one has been published. But under that single ID are multiple systems, some single site, some simulcast, some single frequency intelli-repeaters, and some VHF high band. Depending how this is programmed to operate, it can be seamless wide area coverage, or there could be segregated pieces not available to every user.

Pieces can be broken off from the rest (i.e. microwave failure after an earthquake) in which that broken piece can operated autonomously in a local coverage mode.

So, defining it as a single large system isn't always so absolute. I have yet to see how SB County's system is going to look, and I'm not sure anyone has. But I am aware of separate "systems" co-located in the same building in adjacent racks, each doing different things.
cvrules90
Posts: 1393
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:08 am

Re: Who Uses What System?

Post by cvrules90 »

They're still testing it, so as you said it'd be interesting to see how they'll do it.
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